Or wherein I alienate 90% of my readership.
About once a week I get an email asking me to sign and forward a petition to the president to reinstate school prayer.
And I promptly delete it.
This may come as a surprise to you because I am a Christian and I deeply believe in the power of prayer. I am in favor of prayer. Just not in public school.
The problems with nationally mandated school prayer are many, but I’ll address just the first few that come to mind.
I suppose first and foremost, I am a vehement believer in the separation of church and state. I do not want to live in a theocracy. Moreover, religion and prayer are matters of the heart and government mandates don’t change the heart. I don’t want the government imposing my prayers to my God on others and I don’t want the gods and prayers of others imposed on me. Beyond that, is the sound of required prayers pleasing to the ears of God? I don’t know.
If prayer is so important to you, then YOU should be praying with your children before school. If you are a Christian, praying with your children is your job. And really, don’t our public school teachers already have enough to do just trying to teach kids how to read and write without also having the mandate to pray with your kids too? I think so. Imagine if prayer in school was mandated how much time it would take to pray to each of the gods represented by the population of public school families? Even it if was just a watered down, catch-all global version to the goodness of the universe, why bother? It just doesn’t make sense.
I think publicly funded schools should be for academics only. In my radical view, I question whether sports should be part of public schools, but that there is blasphemy in Texas. (And there goes the rest of my readers).
Prayer is very important to our family. We think that prayer is direct communication with God, the creator of life and the universe. We think prayer is a very holy and serious thing to do and that there is a good and proper way to undertake such a serious matter and frankly, we don’t want to abdicate that to someone with whom we may or may not share a like view of the world.
I do believe in the power of prayer to change the world. I don’t believe nationally mandated school prayer can.
Alysa says:
You, my new blog friend, have hit the nail on the head … i agree … i commend you for the courage to write about it. we, too, are a family that love Jesus and believe in the unbelievable power of prayer.
March 12th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
Kathie says:
Amen
March 12th, 2009 at 12:21 pm
Sue says:
AMEN.
March 12th, 2009 at 12:23 pm
Margie says:
And the glorious thing about being a Christian is that if our children feel like they need to pray while they are at school, they can in their hearts. That’s where Jesus is.
March 12th, 2009 at 12:39 pm
grammyscraps says:
I agree with you wholeheartedly, AM, and with those who have commented so far. We have too much government in our lives as it is.
March 12th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
Becky says:
You’re right – if government can mandate prayers, they can also mandate WHICH God unto which our children pray… and that is something I will not leave up to our government!
March 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Melissaand3boys says:
Again, you show your wiseness.
March 12th, 2009 at 12:51 pm
Ann says:
Not a popular stance, I imagine, among Christians. But, I definitely see where you are coming from…and you make a lot of sense! Thanks for being bold and saying what you believe. There’s often a herd mentality when it comes to Christians, yet I so value when individuals claim the true freedom they have in Christ to be who they are and to discuss openly what they believe. I believe this is another way we minister to each other.
March 12th, 2009 at 12:52 pm
Heidi says:
Amen on the prayer thing.
And, even though my children are both very involved in sports, I can very clearly see your point on that as well.
March 12th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
Quirky says:
Right there with you AM. When I was in school, we had a student-led, student- sponsored morning prayer club. It was completely voluntary, and because of that, surprisingly popular. In addition to all the reasons that you listed, kids of school age are never going to want to do what they are forced to do, and will want to do what they know their teachers cannot tell them to do. The day they mandate prayer is the day that no kid will ever want to do it on their own.
March 12th, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Liz says:
I think there is probably more (personal/private) prayer in school than anyone realizes.
March 12th, 2009 at 1:08 pm
alice says:
I completely agree. I feel the same way about the public prayer before sporting events, such as NASCAR. But I’ll stop before I alienate the rest of your readers.
March 12th, 2009 at 1:24 pm
Michelle says:
I don’t think I’ve ever commented before, although I’ve been a loyal reader for a long time. I don’t have your gift with words, AM, and am always nervous of tripping over my own feet verbally.
I had to comment here, though, and say that this is one of the many reasons we have chosen to homeschool. Giving the government control of how and what our children learn, when the government embraces many values and beliefs that we as Christians do not, is not something we would ever choose to do.
That said, if you choose to have your child attend a secular school, why would you expect them to pray? And if they ever did, wouldn’t the prayer be of necessity so diluted that it wouldn’t be much of a prayer at all?
March 12th, 2009 at 1:26 pm
Julie at Elisharose says:
I think the time for prayer in school has passed. Mostly for the reasons you stated.
We had prayer in my school when I was growing up. It was a simple prayer before the lunch. We may have prayed after the pledge of allegiance, but I’m not sure about that. In any case, it was simple and just part of the way things were.
Nothing is simple now. If prayer was even allowed now it would either be so watered down that it wasn’t really a prayer anyway or it would become so complicated as to not offend anyone or anything that it would be ridiculous.
One of the many reasons we choose to homeschool. : )
March 12th, 2009 at 1:38 pm
Jill says:
I wholeheartedly agree….100%.
March 12th, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Sherri says:
You rock! I have debated this issue with other Christian/non-Christian friends. Who’s going to choose which god my children pray to? Certainly not the school system! And I don’t want them introduced at this age to anything other than the religion I choose to lead them in!
Thank you for taking a stand on this.
March 12th, 2009 at 2:12 pm
Laura says:
Amen, Sister! Oops, was that considered public prayer? And Amen about the sports thing too. You didn’t lose this reader.
Laura
March 12th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
Beth says:
I prayed in public school all the time. Most of the time it was not out loud.
What’s the old saying: “As long as calculus is taught, there will be prayer in public schools”?
March 12th, 2009 at 2:23 pm
Luke Holzmann says:
Very good points. [smile]
~Luke
March 12th, 2009 at 2:29 pm
A&EMom says:
So many have fallen into the belief that the purpose of “separation of church and state” is to keep Christians tucked away in a little box. In reality, it ensures our religious freedom – and that my kids don’t have to honor cows during prayer time at school!
March 12th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
suburbancorrespondent says:
Couldn’t agree more…
March 12th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Carrie says:
Amen! I have a feeling you’ve gained more readers than you’ve lost with that kind of thinking.
March 12th, 2009 at 2:48 pm
Shoe says:
You come form an opinionated family. I just got in trouble with mom!
I BELIEVE in the Pledge of Alligeance and standing at attention and putting your hand over your heart for the Flag and the Star Spangle Banner! I say FIRE those players who don’t.
I see nothing wrong with a momment of quiet before school. Even if the child is thinking “OH sxxxx another day of school”.
We are a Country based on belief in God! However, which or what kind is up to the believer. I’m Catholic but no surprise to you.
Racial post.
March 12th, 2009 at 2:50 pm
Barbara H. says:
I so agree with you. I don’t believe schools should prohibit student-led prayers on occasion where they want to (before a game, or at an extra-curricular club), but the state has no business mandating prayer. And so many good-hearted but naive people think that calling for prayer in the public schools is going to make the schools like they were in the 50s, but it is a different world today. Who knows who a teacher would be praying to or what they’d say these days?
March 12th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
Blog Antagonist says:
(((APPLAUSE)))
You haven’t alienated me. In fact, you have just doomed yourself to my lifelong admiration.
Very well said.
March 12th, 2009 at 2:59 pm
Julia says:
I totally agree. I think too many Christians think “prayer in school” automatically means Christian prayer… if we tell the government that we want teachers praying with our kids, then those teachers might decide to pray to grasshoppers with my child. No thank you.
March 12th, 2009 at 3:00 pm
Shelly W. says:
Amen. Amen. And Amen. I fear that if prayer becomes mandated in schools, those prayers will become as lifeless as the Pledge of Allegiance. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Who really thinks about the words anyway? I, for one, want my kids to THINK about what they are praying.
Or worse, as others have pointed out, that my kids will have to get a mat to kneel on and face toward Mecca five times a day. No thanks.
School is for ACADEMICS, as you pointed out. I can take care of the spiritual upbringing of my children, thank you. Why do so many Christians expect school to do that? I’ve just never understood that.
March 12th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
monica says:
Started reading thinking “oh no, where is this going” and ended feeling wiser for taking time to finish the post. I see your point and now after reading the comments, have had my ideas expanded. I am one of those Christians who think if we have mandated prayer, surely it will be to the God I love. That’s not true though and I guess I just naive in the area. So glad you brought this up!!!
March 12th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
AliAnn says:
Amen! Separation of church and state protects our religious freedom. I don’t want the government choosing my healthcare or education and I certainly don’t want them making spiritual decisions for me.
March 12th, 2009 at 3:14 pm
Annie says:
I feel kind of hypocritical saying an Amen to this post since I am not an American citizen, but Amen. I am a Jesus-lovin-Indian-Christian, but I have a hard time understanding the religion-politics dynamics here. Lots of Christians put all their eggs in the one basket. Hilarious was it when I was trying to explain to my very sweet American friend, how it works in India and she was so surprised (bless her heart) that we don’t ummm say God Bless America in schools in India.
March 12th, 2009 at 3:24 pm
Elisabeth says:
Oh, amen, amen, amen. I was priviliged to attend private Christian school for 11 years of my pre-college education, homeschool 1 year, and attend public school 1 year. I attended the Christian school from which I graduated for 9 years, and I loved it!! But I also love that my little cousins, who do not have the privilege of attending Christian school, are not required to pray at school. I wish their parents prayed with them, but my grandmother provides that portion of their lives. I am just so grateful that they are not forced to pray to another god, and I would not want anyone else’s children to be forced to do so either. I do not find a problem with a moment of silence at the beginning of the day, but I can take it or leave it.
Thanks for such a great post!!
March 12th, 2009 at 3:28 pm
Damsel says:
Excellent post!
“is the sound of required prayers pleasing to the ears of God?” I’d think not. Otherwise, why would He have given us free will?
Thanks for stopping by the blog the other day… the poor thing is sorely neglected and I’m sure it enjoyed your attentions!
March 12th, 2009 at 3:36 pm
Anne says:
Oh my – I could not agree more! My father is a minister and he would tell us this same thing growing up. Mandated religion means we can not control what religion is mandated. I wish more Christians would think through that a little more carefully.
What should not happen is to take away the right to pray privately – and how could that happen? Nobody can control what goes on inside my head.
Our public school (in Indiana) has a moment of silence at the beginning of each day. I think it is a nice time to silence your heart and mind, pray if you wish, but not get into mandated religion.
And by the way – I agree with you on the sports thing too. My husband is a school administrator, and I get sick and tired of how much of his time is taken up with sports – not education, but sports.
I am so on your team!
March 12th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Micaela says:
Yes and Yes to your thoughts on NO to prayer and mandated sports in public school. I’m likely to be lynched, living in the South, for agreeing with you. You’ve got great common sense.
March 12th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
Kai says:
Another hallelujah from the chorus here.
Definitely not a fan of “on demand” prayer. Soon enough you’ll probably be able to Tivo it too.
March 12th, 2009 at 3:51 pm
mythoughtsonthat says:
“Is the sound of required prayers pleasing to the ears of God?” Great point! I work in public school and I shudder to think of most of the teachers I work with trying to lead prayers-it would defeat the whole purpose. On the other hand, my son attends a christian school and prayer is led way better than I could ever do it. Prayer happens, mandated or not.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:00 pm
Janis says:
Again, you rang that little bell in my head. I totally agree with you. I am a Christian mom with children in public schools. There is no way that prayer in school could be mandated, because you would alienate so many. My children can say a silent prayer in school anytime that they choose. When I was a kid Christian prayers were said all the time at the beginning of school functions. No one complained, because almost everyone was Christian. Those that were not hung out under the radar. I always wondered what my Jewish friends thought when the prayers were directed to Jesus. My daughters attend school with children from all over the world and they bring their own religions with them. We pay taxes so that our schools can educate our children regardless of their beliefs.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Karen {simply a musing blog} says:
I am against the issue of mandated prayer, but then again, I’m also against the idea of public schools!
(there go all MY readers)
Like you, I wouldn’t want my children forced to pray to some god with a little ‘g’. “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” 1 Timothy 2:5
I love what Anne said “Mandated religion means we can not control what religion is mandated.”
Couldn’t agree with you more. It’s up to us as parents, period. End of story.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:06 pm
Heidi says:
Didn’t lose this reader! I am of the same mind.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Steffj89 says:
I totally agree on the prayer thing and totally disagree on the sports thing. I do think sports should be in schools and I do think art, and music, and drama should all be there as well….
But that is part of what is awesome about this great country we are all free to think what we choose about those things.
Steff
* * *
It’s criminal the amount of money we spend on sports given the number of mostly boys who (get to) participate to the number of students in the system. Within a few miles of my house, there are three professional quality stadiums. One is laughably called a “Fine Arts Complex” – as if they are doing oil paintings or theater under the bleachers. In my ideal world, there would be sports, but it would be a privately funded entity outside of the public school system. I realize I’m in the minority in my view. ~AM
March 12th, 2009 at 4:10 pm
Gretchen says:
This is so well thought out and well written that even if I disagreed (I don’t), I’d probably be swayed to your opinion.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Sarah at themommylogues says:
I agree with you 110%, but I do have a question. Are all those emails (that I also delete because I’m hesitant on the validity of an email petition) asking that prayer be mandated, or just allowed?
I would like my kids to be allowed to gather together for prayer if they wish, but don’t want to see it mandated.
And I know for a lot of people they don’t agree with public school either, but I wonder, if we take all the Christians out of the public schools, how will the light shine in there? For some kids it is best to homeschool, but for mine, we’re going public schools. And I hope to raise my children with a love for Jesus in their hearts that they can share with their friends and enemies alike.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Amy says:
I couldn’t agree with you more. I was already a huge fan of your blog, but this post definitely ratchets you up a few notches in my book. Now you are going to be stuck with me lurking around your blog for years to come!
I have voiced the same thoughts to many of my Christian friends and acquaintances here in Nashville. They all looked at me like I was insane. Talk about killing a conversation.
I’m so glad to know that I am not the only one that feels this way. Prayer should just be a regular part of our children’s lives. I want my son to know that he can talk to God any time or place that he wants. That God is always there, listening to his voice.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
edj says:
Although I don’t think we’re in any danger of being in a theocracy… however, I agree. I’ve lived in one, I’ve been in the religious minority.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:21 pm
Amy says:
Thank you.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Heide says:
As usual, I appreciate your thoughtful articulation of important ideas. And I absolutely agree with you about prayer in schools; as a Jew, I would neither want to force my prayers on anyone, nor be required to participate in Christian (or other) prayers. (I hope the commenter above who mentioned Mecca did not intend to bash Muslims, by the way.)
March 12th, 2009 at 4:23 pm
Amy says:
totally agree with you on the prayer issue. Never thought of privately funded sports. What is your opinion on the Pledge?
March 12th, 2009 at 4:33 pm
Carrie says:
This is so true – I guess I wouldn’t want just anybody ‘praying’ with my child, either, now that I think about it.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
Robbin says:
Oh. A. Men. Sister.
Quite frankly, I never noticed the lack of school prayer ever inhibited my relationship with God. Ever.
Me and my Creator, we communicated just fine during school. Usually right before tests and right before grades were handed out.
I never felt the need to do it anywhere but in my head.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:55 pm
Marian says:
Yes, required prayer in public schools is absoltely the wrong battle,and the wrong hill to die on in our culture. Would anybody really like or get anything out of the prayer administrators would come up with anyway?! (I imagine, “Dear Higher Power which may or may not exist, we would like to have good day, in whatever way each of us individually defines it. Amen.”)
Individual students being allowed to pray or read a Bible in ways that don’t infringe upon anyone else (free exercise of religion) is another matter. Christian students’ rights really do get violated more than others. When I was in school the issue was equal access. Any club or group of students could use a classroom to meet after school for almost any reason or interest, as long as they treated the space well, of course– chess club, German club, book discussion club, gamers, yoga class, meditation, etc. But if students wanted to pray or read a Bible of their own volition during their meeting, well, no way.
March 12th, 2009 at 4:56 pm
Robinznest says:
I believe prayer in public school worked well in our society in a past time and a past age. But I don’t believe it would work anymore. I whole-heartedly agree with your well-stated points.
March 12th, 2009 at 5:08 pm
Donna @ Way More Homemade says:
This is where I would leave you a mean spirited and poorly spelled comment, right?
I do agree… but you lose me on the sports not being in public school. Granted, they do require and chew up a lot of funding, but don’t you think that it’s part of an all-around educational experience for the child? Just like art, music, and theater? Or maybe that’s just my TEXAN showing – love for football and all.
~Donna
* * *
Donna, your Texan is showing! Sports chew up a disproportionate amount of funding for the number of students who get to participate. And the money we spend on stadiums is just insane. Insane! How about for every dollar we spend on football/sports, we spend on art and music? Love ya’ sister, you know I do. ~AM
March 12th, 2009 at 5:16 pm
Orena says:
I totally agree with you. Many years ago, I had a 5th grade teacher that had devotions with the class every morning. Sometimes I could feel God’s presence so much in the room. But those days are gone. Today, I would be afraid of what prayer my child would be praying, and what god she would be praying to. I agree that it is the parent’s responsibility to teach what they believe, pray with their child and live the life they believe. He’s only a prayer away.
March 12th, 2009 at 5:35 pm
Iota says:
I agree, but for a different reason (although I like all your reasons too). I think that for the child from a non-praying family, prayer in school often kills off any small glimmer of interest in religion. In many private schools in Britain, they still have some kind of worship first thing in the morning. It often serves to equate God with the Head Teacher for the rest of the child’s life, and prayer and worship as something boring to be tolerated, much like a math/science/english lesson – depending on what your least favorite subject is.
March 12th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
Rivkeleh says:
Oh yes yes yes yes yes. Yay for you. I want you and every mother here to teach their child to pray the way they want that child to grow up praying, but the last thing I want is for that to be taken over by a public school committee, or parent teacher group. That is MY right to teach my child, not theirs. Setting him off on the right foot to religious belief is my responsibility. Heaven help the school board that tries to stand in the way.
March 12th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Jean says:
“Imagine if prayer in school was mandated how much time it would take to pray to each of the gods represented by the population of public school families?”
I am in CT. My children are 21, 19, and 14. They all went through the public school system and the youngest is in it now. Different towns, different schools, and they all did it the same way. After the Pledge, they would have the moment of silence where children were told to pray to the God they worship, think happy thoughts, or think whatever they felt like thinking about. There are also gay tolerance clubs in public school, and lots of other groups. There are even child led Christian groups that meet after school. The Christian groups have to be child started and child led because of separation of Church and State, but they’re allowed to have them. Kids can bring bibles to school. Sometimes I wonder if people who spread this petition stuff around even have children going through the public school system. Maybe things are different in other parts of the country. But here in CT, no one cares who is praying in public school and who isn’t.
March 12th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
Julie says:
My high school used to do the pledge in the morning with announcements and we would have 20 seconds of a moment of silence. But not prayer. I think that was ok. It was hardly ever quiet but it really gave a moment to collect yourself before school began. That, I’m ok. I grew up a Baptist PK so everything finds it strange that I am not really into prayer in schools but to me, it is really pointless. Not everyone believes and it may not be a Christian prayer like someone said.
March 12th, 2009 at 6:28 pm
Joan Gambill says:
Being an elderly person, I remember when the Pledge omitted “under God”. Also I remember when a teacher of Physics required a bible verse every Monday, “Jesus wept” was the chosen one each September. This said, separation of Church and State is so valuable!! Thanks for saying what I believe in such a wonderful way! I believe we are all God’s children, just taking different paths depending on where we were born.
March 12th, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Carolie says:
Hear, hear and amen! Thank you for being such a charming voice of reason!
Prayer is intimate, to me at least. In my mind, it belongs in a family setting, and in a congregational setting, but not in a public space.
A bit of trivia — as for the “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance, I am fine with it being there. However, it was never “taken out” — the original never had that line. It was added later!
March 12th, 2009 at 6:38 pm
carich says:
AMEN!!!
March 12th, 2009 at 6:43 pm
Diamond says:
School prayer it is there, even if it is not mandated, in the way in which you probably mean.
On the back of every dollar bill are the words “In God WE Trust” and every school in America is built using Uncle Sam’s money.
March 12th, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Diamond says:
Oops hit the send key to soon.
It is not a personal connected prayer but more a statement.
I have always wondered why those words are on the back of the bill and not on the front of the bill. Also wondered when those words were placed on the U.S.of A. currency.
March 12th, 2009 at 7:00 pm
Kathy Vaughan says:
I am sure you must be surprised and gratified, as I am, at the overwhelming number of responses which support your position. The separtation of church and state is the only thing that will protect the freedom of religion which we enjoy here in America. It is to the extent that they are NOT separated that we have begun to lose some of that religious freedom, as the state has already begun to say when and where prayers can be allowed, among other things. We do not need any further government intrusion into religion, let alone government-mandated intrusion. I do not have children in the public school system, but I do have grandchildren, and I want their parents to be the ones to influence their spiritual lives, NOT the school system or any other arm of government!
March 12th, 2009 at 7:18 pm
tom says:
Not much to add after all that… except that I agree with you. It would raise lots of alarms with me if prayer were mandated by the government. This world is not where our allegiance lies.
March 12th, 2009 at 7:30 pm
Doodles says:
Please GOOGLE “separation of church and state” just so y’all are sure of what it actually means…..
I agree but……….I live in a state that is totally backwards.
We have muslim taxi drivers who are NOT required to give a ride to someone if they are carrying alcohol – its against THEIR religion.
We have a (public) university that is building a place for students to wash their feet (before praying) – huh?
We have an airport that is building a “prayer room” for muslims…….
But God forbid we say God (outloud)…
March 12th, 2009 at 7:38 pm
Julie says:
Here here!!!
I went to school in WI in the 50’s and we survived just fine without mandated school prayers, so I never have been able to understand what all the fuss was about. Prayer is private, done at home or church. I also learned the pledge without “under God”.
School sports have been allowed waaay too much money….matching funds should be given to the arts.
March 12th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
Bitsy says:
I completely agree with everything you said about prayer. Sports, however . . . that’s a different story.
BTW – you blog is very well written.
March 12th, 2009 at 8:04 pm
Leigh says:
Hear Hear AM! You hit the nail on the head. You didn’t lose this reader! I gotta tell you, you have a way of writing from the heart, you are a wonderful writer and communicated your views (and mine — I agree with both prayer and sports) with love, compassion and in a very non-political fashion. Thank you.
I’m a Christian of the Catholic variety and I don’t want my tax dollars going toward a school district figuring out what kind of prayers the kids in my community will say. Even if we agree on Christianity, which brand will we use? Some of my Christian brothers and sisters don’t appreciate my wanting to honor the Saints and the Virgin Mary. Even a prayer as basic as the “Our Father” is a bit different dependent on congregation.
Jean from CT. I’ve lived all over the country and frankly I find the religious tolerance in New England to be rather refreshing (I’m in NH). Rather surprising given our history of actual witch hunts! But seriously, this area of the country was settled by religous outcasts (pilgrims and puritans) and I think that set up the seeds of religous tolerance through the centuries. I’m not a yankee (in the New England sense), but I am glad to live here.
Carolie, the Catholic organization, Knights of Columbus is the group that got “one nation, under God” added to the pledge during the communist scare in the 1950’s.
Thank you again AM! I so appreciate your electronic presence in my life. I don’t have children, but I love your stories about life.
Leigh
March 12th, 2009 at 8:11 pm
April says:
Once again, you have proven to me that you don’t have to carry extreme dogma into discussions of religion! Whether this country was founded on a firm belief in a Christian God or not (many of our founding fathers were agnostics, as I’m sure you know), is not the point. The Declaration was written to protect all people. The problem with forcing the majority’s politics and beliefs on others is those that comprise the majority are always changing. Christians are quickly becoming the minority and I don’t believe that tolerance is the same as condoning differing beliefs. I believe it is our protection as cultures intertwine and change. Freedom for all! Let’s leave the judgment to God! Antique Mommy, You are just amazing and it makes me very happy to know that you hold many of the beliefs that I do. My parents often tell me I don’t stand up for Christianity enough. When I feel by offering those of all faiths my love and respect, it is the truest testament to my Christian faith!
March 12th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
Jennifer C says:
I totally agree with you about prayer in school, and sports in school, too!
March 12th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
Lucy says:
I can’t help but agree. There is just something personal and private about that and I sure don’t want the government telling me who I can or can’t pray to. It’s a can of worms that doesn’t need to be opened.
March 12th, 2009 at 8:22 pm
bonniebeth says:
There is a lot wrong with our public schools these days….but the absence of prayer is not one of them.
March 12th, 2009 at 8:35 pm
Stretch Mark Mama says:
I don’t know…I think the world has been positively and radically changed by forwarded e-mail petitions.
Maybe you should start one about NOT praying in schools. And if people don’t forward the message, then they have to buy $32 worth of wrapping paper to support the purchase of athletic equipment.
March 12th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
daring one says:
Laylee tells me about little prayers she says at school all the time. They’re personal. Prayer is personal to me.
March 12th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
mrsfuddieduddie says:
I just want you to know that I admire your courage to let everyone know how you feel. You’ve given me a new view to present to my womans group at church. Thanks so much for your honesty!!
I love it.
March 12th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
happy geek says:
AMEN.
And to the whole sports thing-y, there are places in the world (just not Texas) where school sports are funded just the same as the arts programs. Poorly. My hubbie and I used to take our visiting Canadian friends to see the high school football stadiums when we lived in Texas as we had never ever seen anything like it. EVER.
I think in this area it is all about balance. Physical Education can be a good thing and part of education, just not to the detriment of academics.
March 12th, 2009 at 9:32 pm
Roxanne says:
In Texas, if you do not already know, there IS a state mandated “moment of silence” each day after the pledge to the U.S. flag and the pledge to the Texas flag. (Yes, comment readers, we say the Texas pledge EVERY school day in Texas.) I tell my students at the beginning of the year that they do not HAVE to say the pledges–I have some that say neither, I have some that say the U.S. one only–and that they do not HAVE to pray during the moment of silence. They DO have to stand up for the pledges. And they DO have to be silent during the moment of silence. They can use that moment (minute) however they like–they can sleep, daydream, stare at their cuticles, or pray–which is what I do. They know that is what I do. I tell them that is what I do. But I totally agree that MANDATED PRAYER is a really bad idea, because it is nearly impossible for me to get them to stand up and be silent–much less pray.
March 12th, 2009 at 9:57 pm
MamaJo says:
“I don’t want the government imposing my prayers to my God on others and I don’t want the gods and prayers of others imposed on me. ”
I totally agree with you…but I have to say I disagree with your view on sports…but then I AM a Texan…lol.
March 12th, 2009 at 10:12 pm
Grafted Branch@Restoring the Years says:
I think to pray in public school is to encourage the use of God’s name in vain–and He will not hold them guiltless who use His name in vain. So, I’m with you on that.
I would like to see the Bible read and studied in school though as a staple of the Social Studies/History curricula.
I like your boldness about the sports in Texas! LOL!
March 12th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
Kim says:
I agree that prayer should not be mandated. But the one statement you made that no religion should be taught in a public school got my attention. Though it is not labeled as such, there is definitely a religion being taught in the public school. Don’t be blinded to it.
***
I don’t believe I made the statement that no religion should be taught at school. I think religions should be taught in the context of history, not as a prescribed theology. ~AM
March 12th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Donna W says:
Amen, sister. And while we’re at it, I am not worried about “under God” being removed from the pledge of allegiance. When I first learned the pledge it wasn’t there, and I don’t think people suddenly became more spiritual when it was added.
March 12th, 2009 at 11:01 pm
Christine says:
Bang!
That would be you hitting the nail squarely on its head.
Blog on, sister!
March 12th, 2009 at 11:43 pm
Jean says:
“It is to the extent that they are NOT separated that we have begun to lose some of that religious freedom, as the state has already begun to say when and where prayers can be allowed, among other things.”
I have never encountered anyone telling my kids that they were not allowed to pray. If they did, you would hear my shriek clear across the country. Actually, public school is just the way I want it. I don’t want the school leading my children in prayer, which they don’t. I do want my children to be able to pray in school if they want to, and they are allowed to do so in public school. It’s all good.
March 12th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
fern says:
I am with you totally on keeping church and state separate.
A few years ago I would have agreed with you on sports–but now I think they are good, as long as that is not the focus and there are other options for everyone. Our high school has plenty of sports, including fencing–which gave my non-sport son some after school exercise and lots of fun. He also learned a lot about being on a team and helping each other. But, we also have zoology/botany (I can’t even name all the critters my kids have brought home for weekends), debate, mathletes,golf, scholastic bowl, broadcasting, Jewish student union (which brings together all different kinds of folks), Baptist choir (that I have seen dance to the Klezmer band)and much more.
March 12th, 2009 at 11:55 pm
Brooke says:
There is a difference though between mandated prayer and allowed prayer… a big difference. There are students that have been persecuted and punished for praying in school, and that’s not right either.
Prayer shouldn’t be mandated, but with the idea of separation of church and state, shouldn’t a student be allowed to choose if they would like to pray at school?
March 13th, 2009 at 12:12 am
Jean says:
“Jean from CT. I’ve lived all over the country and frankly I find the religious tolerance in New England to be rather refreshing (I’m in NH). Rather surprising given our history of actual witch hunts! But seriously, this area of the country was settled by religous outcasts (pilgrims and puritans) and I think that set up the seeds of religous tolerance through the centuries. I’m not a yankee (in the New England sense), but I am glad to live here.”
Waving to my neighbor in NH! I agree with everything you said. I’m not a yankee either, even though I was born in CT. lol I have to laugh because people from other parts of the country will find that statement odd. lol I’m Italian American. Italians in CT shudder at being called a yankee. LOL
March 13th, 2009 at 12:13 am
Brigitte says:
Another supporter here, AM, both on your reasons for no state-mandated school prayer, and for – if there are sports at all – equal funding for arts/music/etc. I knew I loved you!
I am another New Englander who is sometimes just astounded at the intolerance that some of the people in other regions can show. I am sure there are intolerant types here too, but there seem to be rarely enough of them to organize and get up to no good!
March 13th, 2009 at 5:44 am
Debbie says:
Often the truth is told in but a single voice. Well done.
March 13th, 2009 at 6:14 am
Antique Mommy’s at it Again « Right Foot Forward says:
[...] read this post from Antique Mommy about prayer in public school. The public school system is something that is a [...]
March 13th, 2009 at 8:11 am
carla turner says:
Well, that is an intersting take…. I would have to agree with you…..
March 13th, 2009 at 8:29 am
Antique Mommy says:
Here’s another radical idea – what if instead of Christians gathering together to pray at school, separating from the very ones they hope to influence, what if they took that same time and together they served their school community in some way? Would that not be a better display of faith? And then gather in homes or on-line for prayer.
March 13th, 2009 at 8:35 am
Lori says:
Apparently you are not as radical as you think or you have a lot of radical readers since so many agree with you. =-)
In 6th grade my older son was “forced” to bow down facing mecca and pray. He refused to take part in the exercise (World Geography). The teacher singled him out and said that they couldn’t continue the lesson until he did. I realized after listening to his explanation when he got home that the teacher was young and new and was trying to teach in a sensory way to help the kids remember something (she was not trying to convert them to Islam). I calmly contacted her, had a nice chat on the phone and she apologized profusely. Truly I was bothered by her singling my son out – which is mortifying to a middle schooler – than the exercise itself. Problem solved – no biggie. On the other hand, a friend called and was ready to send this teacher to the guillotine! (Yeah…that was a real Christian-like response, huh?)
No one – I repeat – NO ONE can prevent you from praying to God in school. As a matter of fact, I find that I can pray to God ANYWHERE I choose because I can communicate with him silently.
I think Christians get way too radical about such matters. Maybe we should all take a deep breath first and think about what we are asking for.
Now maybe you should address the idea of whether we should post the 10 Commandments in public places….LOL
* * *
The public posting of the 10 Commandments is another example of how Christians get distracted. To be Christ to others is to love, to love is to serve. It’s more likely that acts of Christian love will win hearts for Christ rather than the public posting of the 10 Commandments. As Christians, we have to ask ourselves, what is our goal and what are we doing to achieve it?
March 13th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Kim H. says:
I never really had thought of it that way, but when I read your thoughts – I completely agree! Prayer in the public school would be to watered down and not a sincere reflection of faith.
Of course, I also agree that it is the parent’s job to teach and mold such things in their children.
I can’t say I agree on the sports thing, but yes – I’m a Texan too.
March 13th, 2009 at 9:13 am
Cathy says:
Luke 6:45 (New International Version)
45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks.
Mandatory prayer in school will not change anything. God’s love in someone’s heart will change everything.
March 13th, 2009 at 10:17 am
zoom says:
My father was a high school principal, who for years, said the exact same thing you articulated so well about prayer in school.
Although we are native Texans, he would also agree whole heartedly with you about sports. There are more than a few goofy coaches he had to contend with.
March 13th, 2009 at 10:27 am
nicole says:
I agree. It does not need to be mandated. My children can pray whenever they feel like it, in the quietness of their hearts, and do not need to be told to do so by their teachers. Besides, given the poor overall performance in accomplishing the most basic of goals, why would I trust a school to do a good job with prayer?
March 13th, 2009 at 10:42 am
rrmama says:
I won’t say whether I agree with you or not but many people don’t know this an online petition is not valid. A petition must be signature signed by registered voters. If you sign an online petition all you are doing is adding your name to a list. While the list can be forwarded on the proper person, all an online petition can be used for is to show a number of how many. I know, stinks but true. A local judge informed of this but I have to admit sometimes I sign anyway. You never know.
March 13th, 2009 at 10:45 am
Nette says:
Another home run.
March 13th, 2009 at 10:47 am
desi says:
I remember praying in school.But that was the 70’s. Then…it was good. But I agree with you. That’s why I send my kids to a Christian school who has the same Christian views I do.
March 13th, 2009 at 10:58 am
Anne says:
Fair point. I’m from England, so the rule of prayers/religion in school is a bit different.
I don’t think religion should be forced on people, it’s foolish to do, because people are more likely to run the opposite away (I’m a Christian, that’s the last thing I want). I have heard of people not being allowed to pray in American public schools though, which I don’t know if this is correct, but if it is, that concerns me more.
March 13th, 2009 at 11:26 am
maggie says:
What some people may or may not realize is that if there is a law passed mandating prayer in schools, it may not only be Christian prayers mandated. Think about the possibilities. This is not the same world or country we lived in growing up. Things are changing. Pray at home or in church. Or in your head.
March 13th, 2009 at 11:26 am
Janet Doherty says:
Holy Cat’s Batman…I think this hit a lot of people in the right place. Very well put and it should even turn the hearts of those that are crying for prayer in school. We don’t need more government intervention. Are you going to watch the Glenn Beck show tonight?
We are catholic and like others we have the option of going to a catholic school if we really want religion in our curriculum.
Great thoughts …thanks for sharing.
Janet
* * *
I don’t watch or listen to the popular political pundits — Beck, Limbaugh, Colter to name a few on the right — because often the language they use is so inflammatory that it invalidates any real point they had.
March 13th, 2009 at 11:39 am
First Born at 40 says:
Can we also have a separation of political beliefs and education?? I have recently been appalled by the politically-influenced nonsense my child comes home spouting…and he’s just in kindergarten.
March 13th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Amy says:
AMEN Sister! Though I do have to disagree with you on the sports thing somewhat (I am from Texas after all!) Thanks so much for speaking up!
March 13th, 2009 at 3:53 pm
HarryJacksMom says:
Amen, again (and again for the sports comment!) Happy weekend!
March 13th, 2009 at 4:16 pm
Ann Nonymous says:
You didn’t alienate this reader. I am a Christian also and don’t believe in prayer in public schools.
March 13th, 2009 at 4:34 pm
Leigh says:
AM, You’re a great writer. I think the politicians and pundits could take a lesson from you. I’m convinced we can coexist peacefully, we just need to leave the rhetoric and inflammatory comments behind.
Brigitte and Jean, I guess we don’t have to be yankees to appreciate New England. It does make up for the weather…. most of the time.
Leigh
March 13th, 2009 at 5:51 pm
Sharon says:
I could not agree with you more. Well said.
March 13th, 2009 at 8:03 pm
Fuzzy says:
I think it is interesting what you say, and you say it very well. What I do worry about is the way the vacations and holidays have changed, to include everyone but the Christians. Christmas is no longer that, but Winter show/break. But I’m sure the kids can name all the Jewish holidays that they kids have off. I worry that the Christians seems to be pushed out the hardest, though Christ is the most important.
March 13th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Amy says:
right on target!
March 13th, 2009 at 8:32 pm
Jennifer says:
I completely agree with you!
As far as I know, it’s still permissible for students to lead their own prayers (ie – “See You at the Pole”), it’s just not permissible for the administration to lead the prayers. I have no problem with students praying in school as long as it’s voluntary.
March 13th, 2009 at 9:22 pm
Erica says:
Preach it, SISTAH!
One more point to your argument, though. I am a teacher who is loving Jesus and I know every Christian parent in my room would be over the moon to have me praying in class with their kids.
But.
Honestly? I am in the minority. I love my many co-workers, they are caring, intelligent, compassionate, wise, friendly, and fun people. However I would not want most of them standing in as a spiritual leader to my children. Most of them do not believe in Jesus, and I don’t want them praying with my children or leading them in prayer. And no matter where one lives in this world? That is probably going to be the case of the majority of teachers.
So, Christian parents? What I would LOVE is that you would take extra time to pray FOR your schools and teachers, and much less time petitioning for another burden on teachers who may disappoint in their ability to provide the spiritual leadership you may wish for your children. I know that *I* could use all the prayers you can muster.
March 13th, 2009 at 9:31 pm
Yvonne says:
Hmmmm – no readers lost it appears!
March 13th, 2009 at 9:59 pm
Shannon says:
I totally agree. My husband and I, and our church, will teach our children about faith. The school can teach them algebra. (But then again, they have my genes, so the school might *not* be able to teach them algebra.)
Great post, AM.
March 13th, 2009 at 11:17 pm
Adrian says:
I agree with you on mandated prayer, but I do wish that students were given more freedom if they WANT to pray. I was part of the Bible Club in High School and I truly think that’s what kept me away from drugs and other bad influences. My older son has a shirt with a picture of a marijuana plant on it, but it says Legalize Prayer instead of Legalize Marijuana and I think it is shameful how our country has sidelined and disrespected people of faith. I think we just need a lot more tolerance of people’s choices, whether they choose to be religious or not.
March 14th, 2009 at 1:01 am
deb says:
Ugh. I’m sad and actually frightened that so many either do not know, or misunderstand, or misapply the principle of separation of church & state (a principle derived largely from the First Amendment), especially as it applies to public school prayer. Many apply it to both teachers and students, which is inaccurate.
The separation of church and state principle only applies to those who are being paid by the state, such as teachers or administrators.
Conversely the Supreme Court has ruled that schools must preserve students’ religious liberties, and that includes their right to pray silently, out loud, individually, or in groups (but not in a way that is disruptive to the educational process.)
On our son’s very first day of kindergarten, he raised his hand to ask about praying before eating. The teacher replied, “We don’t pray in school.”
He came home with the completely erroneous idea that he was not allowed to pray at school. (“We don’t do that” = teacher-speak for “you may not do that”.)
To truly adhere to, as well as effectively teach, the principles outlined in the First Amendment, she should have said something to the effect, “As your teacher, I don’t lead you in prayer, but you as students are free to pray if you’d like.”
1st Amendment quote: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
In the current pendulum swing toward ensuring separation of church and state, we have to be careful to truly know the law and its principles to preserve both the separation of church and state *and* our freedom of speech and free exercise of religion, or our free nation will cease to exist.
Prayer mandated by the government? No.
Free exercise of religion? Yes.
Starting in school. Teach and apply our Constitution accurately.
Apologies for blogging on your blog. This is such a hugely important issue.
March 14th, 2009 at 1:48 am
Sue says:
Because we do not know if Christians would be the teachers leading the prayers, I also do not want mandated prayer in public schools. Having been a teacher and having seen first-hand what goes on there, I encourage anyone to send their children to a good Christian school.
I shouldn’t even get started on sports. How ridiculous! Youth are kept out very, very late to go to games. If teachers kept them out that late to read books, parents would not stand for it. My children went on to play college sports, and guess what happens at that level? Classes must be missed so that they can go all over the country (literally) to play sports. Where is the priority here?
March 14th, 2009 at 2:10 am
Sandra says:
I agree. Separation of church and state is actually a protection to Christianity, not a danger.
But…on the sports…many children’s parents could never afford private sports programs. At least they have a chance to participate at school. I realize that by high school years, only the most talented get to play; but all the students can attend and be a part of the excitement.
* * *
I’m not sure everyone gets to participate in sports. Especially in high school, sports seems to belong to an elite group while we all pay for that privilege. I think originally the public school system was started with the idea that an educated populace would create a better work force and a stronger nation. I fail to see how basketball and football and cheerleading do that.
March 14th, 2009 at 10:17 am
apathy lounge says:
1)Personally, I think that every person who believes in God is praying to the same God. Regardless of one’s faith system. Different names…same entity.
2) You can’t force a kid to pray. Not even when you’re surrounded by a bunch of people who believe the same way you do. You can be attending a Christian or Hebrew or Muslim school and during an adult-led group prayer and you can be standing still, head bowed, hands folded, eyes closed and be doing nothing more with your thoughts than running over last night’s baseball scores or your notes for an upcoming test. Who’s going to know? Likewise you can be attending a public (SECULAR…I hate it when that word is dangled between fingertips like a snot-filled kleenex someone found on the floor)school and the “moment of silence” that we have following the announcements could be used for silent prayer. Or when the classroom is silent during a test. I mean…who is going to know?
3)Actually, when people talk about mandated school prayer, what they really want is an opportunity to make a huge production out of ONE PARTCULAR BELIEF SYSTEM. One system that–by virtue of the chance to voice your belief out loud to others–lets everyone know that your religion trumps everyone else’s. While it’s okay to think that your religions is THE WAY, this country’s take on faith guarantees that everyone else gets to think the same thing about what they believe. Freedom of religion means freedom from religious tyranny. Christians who insist on making a public spectacle out of their prayer rituals would never cotton to a situation where any other religion forced them to pray or even listen to petitions to the Divine via another believe system. What makes it okay to disrespect others in this way?
4) I watched a child pray silently over an after school snack the other day. No one even noticed. No one tried to stop her. Were here prayers unheard by God because we all didn’t stop what we were doing and draw attention to it by making it a group project? I think not.
5) It sickens me unto death that homeschoolers and other like them (Fundamentalists) demonize the public schools for merely carrying out what the Constitution guarantees: A mutual respect for all faiths (by not advertising one over another) and the separation of church and state.
6) If you lose readers over your opinions, then I believe you’re well rid of people like that. Peace to you, AM.
* * *
I hear what you are saying. I think you make a mistake in painting home schoolers with such a broad brush. I know many many families that home school. Some could be described as fundamentalist, although I don’t know any, but others definitely not. What we all have in common is struggling to figure out how to best educate our children according to our values. ~AM
March 14th, 2009 at 10:47 am
Linda says:
You are not losing any readers that I can see. I agree with you. As many have pointed out our children can still pray just not be led or mandated.
I believe that many Christians never really think issues all the way through. If it sounds like what should be done, then lets jump on the band wagon. However as you well pointed out, we must look at the consequences of our actions. We as Christians do not want our children praying to just any god.
If we as parents teach our children to pray without ceasing as the Bible teaches us, then our schools will always have prayer in them. As one person pointed out as long as there are tests and exams there will be prayer. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with us.
March 14th, 2009 at 1:48 pm
Bee says:
I read this post yesterday and didn’t post right away because I wanted to be awesomely profound when I told you how right you are! I think prayer is a deeply personal and private conversation between me and God. I don’t even like it when Sunday School teachers tell me how to pray. I know I wouldn’t like it if school officials told me I had to embrace a relegion totally against my belief system by praying to another’s god.
So, you didn’t lose this not-so-profound reader. I think I’ll continue to come back for more.
March 14th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
Mandy says:
You are absolutely correct… Pray at home and often….. The sports thing, too! We have a huge (and I mean HUGE) Athletic Association at my daughter’s high school and NO (and I mean absolutely NO) PTO! What is up with that?
March 14th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
Dee says:
Agree. But everyone looks at me like I have two heads when I disagree with them about this subject in our little ol’ town. And I always bring up a cult (in my opinion)….and remind them that I now have family members who belong to that cult and that I would never never never want my children, or any children for that matter, praying in the manner, etc. of that cult. And if prayer is officially part of school, what’s to stop that? I really really try to explain it in a nice and respectful way.
March 15th, 2009 at 1:02 am
Tater Mama says:
Well done, Antique Mommy!
I am so glad that you wrote this. I can’t tell you how many times this topic has crossed my mind as a possible post, but I could never have written it as eloquently as you did.
March 15th, 2009 at 9:05 pm
common mom says:
Well done
Spot on
Right there with ya
Thank you for this post.
March 16th, 2009 at 12:24 pm
Deborah says:
I agree whole heartedly! If I haven’t taught my children to pray anywhere/anytime they want…I have failed…not the school. Let them teach algrebra and biology (or spelling!).
March 17th, 2009 at 9:56 am
April Clark says:
I agree 100% on both points AM. And thank you for so eloquently addressing Apathy Lounge’s comment on home schoolers.
April C.
March 18th, 2009 at 12:15 pm
Caro says:
::::Berating myself for not having visited your blog in a few weeks:::: No wonder I’ve been pissy!
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your 1.) wisdom, 2.) writing ability and 3.) humor.
I will not stay away again!
Carol
March 18th, 2009 at 6:48 pm
Becca says:
Oh, what awesome parents your baby boy has! I so admire how you refuse to abdicate your parental rights.
Right on!
March 18th, 2009 at 8:20 pm
Sarah @ BecomingSarah.com says:
I get those e-mails periodically too and I always wonder how the people would feel if someone wanted to institute mandatory prayer facing Mecca or mandatory weekly visits to a Buddhist temple, etc.
I just don’t have the guts to say stuff like that out loud. Well done you!
March 19th, 2009 at 7:50 pm
LORI says:
AS A TEACHER IN THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH YOU! THERE IS, IN MOST SCHOOLS I’VE BEEN IN, A MANDATED “MOMENT OF SILENCE” DIRECTLY FOLLOWING THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE. I ALWAYS INSTRUCT THE KIDS TO USE THIS TIME OF SILENCE AS THEY WISH–TO THINK ABOUT WHAT KINDS OF CHOICES THEY WILL MAKE THAT DAY, TO THINK ABOUT A FAMILY MEMBER OR FRIEND IN NEED, OR TO OFFER UP A PRAYER TO GOD–THEIR GOD. IT’S SIMPLE, AND IT WORKS. THE BEAUTIFUL PART IS WHEN YOU SEE LITTLE HANDS, AT THEIR DESKS, FOLDED IN PRAYER AND KNOW THAT THEY ARE CASTING UP A PRAYER OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL, NOT ONE THAT WAS MANDATED BY OUR GOVERNMENT.
March 21st, 2009 at 7:28 pm
Kimber says:
Hey there! I found you looking for quotes about mandated prayer in schools as I was once again asked to join in a facebook cause to KEEP prayer in schools… ::sigh::
As a reaction, I started up a facebook group called, “Whose God do YOU want in schools?” several months ago. So, I’ve added the link for this post to that group because it is such a wonderful and insightful post!!
BTW, I homeschool my kids… and I agree with you whole-heartedly. I do think that the homeschool community USED to be widely fundamentalist in nature, but I am seeing a huge transition in this community. I am so happy to find liberals, conservatives, libertarians, Jews, Christians, agnostics, and more beginning to share in this oldest form of education for children! But I do tend to grate on the nerves of my very fundamental ‘friends’…
July 24th, 2009 at 12:22 pm